Monday, April 19, 2021 - 9:30 AM




Robin DeLoria, Chairperson

Archie Depo, Vice-Chairperson


Chairman DeLoria called this DPW Meeting to order at 9:30 am with the following Supervisors in attendance: Clayton Barber, Robin DeLoria, Archie Depo, Stephanie DeZalia, Shaun Gillilland, Joseph Giordano, Charlie Harrington, Roy Holzer, Ken Hughes, Steve McNally, Noel Merrihew, James Monty, Tom Scozzafava, Jeff Subra, Ike Tyler, Joe Pete Wilson and Davina Winemiller.Jay Rand was absent.


Department Heads present: Jim Dougan, Judy Garrison and Dan Palmer.


Also present: Alice Halloran


News Media: Tim Rowland Ė Sun Community News.



DELORIA:I will call this DPW committee to order.Can we stand for the pledge please.Thank you for that.Mr. Dougan can you come to the microphone please.


DOUGAN:Welcome back everyone.Itís good to see your faces smiling at me or as someone said, last week just your eyes smiling at me.Do you want to do resolutions first?


DELORIA:Yes, please Jim.


DOUGAN:My first is a resolution authorizing a deduct change order with Reale Construction Company.This was for the Gulf Brook Phase 2 project over in Keene.There was an allowance in the bid document for type 6 rock those are the real large rock that we put in gulf brook to try to channelize it, we didnít use as much money in that allowance so this is again a deduct change order in the amount of $31,567.80.


DELORIA:Okay it has to be deducted?


PALMER:Yes, that is correct.


DELORIA:Okay can I have a motion from the committee, Tommy second, Archie.Thank you.




DELORIA:All in favor, opposed Ė carried.


DOUGAN:My next two are similar to the ones I brought last month.This is our term contract that Reale Construction Company was awarded the bid for.The first project is on Tracy Road, this one is in the Town of North Hudson last month we did one in the Town of Moriah.Itís for not to exceed $22,800.00, this is to reconstruct a section of road there about 200 feet long, both lanes.Itís about 4 feet of removal and put in new drain stone and removal of poor subsoils.




DELORIA: Discussion?All in favor.


DOUGAN:The next one, again itís Reale Construction Company this one is also the Town of Moriah.Itís on the Pilfershire Road, two sections there one is .2 miles from 9N the other is about .5 miles from 9N, they are roughly 200 feet and 100-foot-long again, going to remove about two-foot-deep of that road and replace the material and itís in the amount of $15,300.




DELORIA:Discussion?All in favor.


DOUGAN:My next one is a contract amendment with Schoder Rivers Associates.This is for the Simonds Hill Road over Boquet River Bridge replacement.This is to include final design and construction phase services of this replacement bridge and also realigning the road some there for those of you that know Simonds Hill, itís a real, sharp curve coming into that so realigning that working into that side bank a little bit again, for those of you that know it so itís in the amount not to exceed $48,800.00, that is again, not to exceed because they charge us for the actual hours looking to come from budgeted funds and further authorizing the County Chair or the County Manager to execute.




DELORIA:Jimmy, the 3.7 rating how does that stack up on this type of work that we do?


DOUGAN:Okay bridges Ė anything thatís classified as a bridge gets inspected by NYS DOT once every two years unless itís been previously received a yellow flag or a red flag and then it will be inspected by DOT every year.When they inspect it they have an overall rating system that goes from a one to a seven.Seven is brand new condition, functions as originally designed.Number one doesnít function at all basically it needs to be out of service so if the number is in between a five is the number that we kind of look at, when it gets to a five on that rating system it means itís either got significant deterioration or itís not operating as originally designed meaning itís probably not rated for its normal rating.Normal rating Ė if Iím getting long winded let me know.Normal rating the final HS20 or HS25 those generally HS20 was the code ten years ago and HS25 is the new code so if you plan on 80,000 lbs. as a rough number itís a complicated mathematical formula to figure out itís about 80,000 lbs. is normally designed for so but this estimate is posted down because of its efficient component in the bridge then it will get a lower rating and itís not meeting what it is originally designed for so those are the numbers that will show up lower than a 5.If itís below a 5 then I probably have to do something with it in the next five, seven, ten years.


DELORIA: Okay, very good.Any other questions or discussion on this?All in favor.What do you have next Jim?


DOUGAN:Other than the resolutions, I will tell you the county started asphalt digging this week just as an update there.Thatís a little earlier than we had but we had that real warm weather other than the snow later this week.Thereís a big paving project, they are redoing the airport in Clinton county so the things that are to the North side of the county, our low bidder for asphalt was Up Stone Materials for this upper part and they are low bidder to do all the asphalt for the airport as well so weíre trying to get that part done sooner rather than later, trying to target those towns on that northern side if they are going to use Up Stone for their materials so start getting your roads ready as soon as you can because 80,000 tons of blacktop for one project is quite a bit.


McNALLY:What was the cost of that compared to years past?


DOUGAN:It was actually pretty close.It only went up a couple thousand tons so around sixty-two and sixty-four right now is our average.Weíre a little bit lower.Peckham down south is a better number so weíre a little under sixty on some of that but again, weíre watching gas prices go up on our bids have an escalation clause in there so as petroleum prices go up because petroleum is a big piece of asphalt those prices will go higher.Iím expecting toward the end of summer that the prices are going to go up quite a bit. I would say five, six dollars a ton is a good bet.


McNALLY:I would think getting those early would be beneficial because the State is going to be doing a lot of paving this year and they are a priority and sometimes you donít get much.


DOUGAN:Thatís part of what weíre trying to do with this project up here in starting a little bit earlier than we have partially because the weather has been with us but we expect the prices to go up so if you talk with your town highway superintendents and if we all work together and get it done early.


DELORIA:Does anybody have questions for Jim on his report?


MONTY:Jim, recently we got the notice of buying the salt that we have kind of reached our 70%.What is the cutoff date for us getting the numbers for next year?


DELORIA:2020-2021 contract ends in August so if you can get up over 70% by August and I donít know the exact date in August off the top of my head but if you can get there then they will be holding charges.We made a phone call to the vendor, out of Ithaca who is supplying most of it up here asked if they were going to forgo those holding charges and which they did and Davina knows that from last year but it was a relatively light winter so I think are a lot more communities, a lot more counties that may not have met their 70% so Iím sure if they are going to have no holding charges if you go past August so if you have ability to take it, weíll keep trying to get an answer for that but if you have the ability to take some of that to get over 70% then try to do it.


MONTY:We fortunately do have the ability to store it now thatís not a problem but I donít want to order the same amount next year because weíve been trying to reduce our salt usage each year and if I order the same amount that amount with what Iíve got in the shed weíre going to have more than enough to put in our sand pile because obviously we didnít use as much sand but just trying to balance it out so I donít end up having to buy you know, 104 tons of salt.


DOUGAN:The number is 70% to 120% of what your initial order is now if you take less than 70% then you could face a holding charge or penalty.If you use more than 120% then same thing now the orders are all done as a group to have the better pricing so if overall, things balance out then even if you were a little under or a little over so the letter that we sent each town was because most people were a little bit under the 70% we Essex County ourselves are 300 tons, roughly 100 and so in the budget was a new salt storage shed built with a grant and DEC, not the salt but weíre storing our sand undercover so normally we would make sure in August we would order up that extra tonnage and then we would only mix it up with sand but we prefer to mix it up immediately because of the cover.We are going to have to mix less salt but itís going to be under cover.


MONTY:Thank you.


HARRINGTON:Yes, Iím not on the committee but Iím concerned about the status of the Fish Hatchery specifically with the last storm that went through.Has there been a cleanup for your information, the boardís information quite a few trees that were blown down and I think there may be a concern with lack of canopy which may allow arise in temperatures of water.What is your concerns and what has been done about it?


DOUGAN:There was a lot of trees that were blown down probably, close to 60 trees large pine mostly that came down. We did immediately after the storm, we went down, we opened up the roads to get back into the aquifer where the fish hatchery staff do go check and try to keep the channels running for stuff that is coming from the streams and stuff so all that is open including the road that gets us all the way back over to Bradford Hill okay even that is open up to the gate but there is still lot of trees that are down.Yes, weíre a little concerned that that canopy will allow more sunlight in and is generally going to raise the temperature of the water.As the temperature of the water goes up that typically bleeds oxygen itís going to be even harder to keep the fish, raise the fish, itís going to be harder to keep them disease free.Luckily a lot of this canít be a loss, it wasnít right at main brook okay?A lot of it was up towards the spring side which is really still a major part of the aquifer but hopefully a lot of that water will find its way to the ground and not cause an immediate increase in the temperature of the water but itís a concern.Itís a huge concern and maybe something that we want to work with Soil & Water on. Allice I havenít talked about it yet so Iím just thinking out loud right now about doing some type of a replanting project there.


HARRINGTON:Has there been a change in the administration at the Fish Hatchery?


DOUGAN: We filled the Fish Hatchery Attendant position and she started about three weeks ago.So that we expect to help quite a bit allow us a little more time to spend time on buildings and grounds and a look at the outside of the building and then once we hire the Events Coordinator Position that position is supposed to be involved in the administration of the Fish Hatchery just as much as the Fairgrounds.


HARRINGTON:Does that include a plan to enhance tourism?


DOUGAN:Absolutely.Iíd like to, one of the things that we talked about with the different applicants was we want to get field trips back there again when it used to be.To talk about the Events Coordinator position a little bit I expect them to advertise certain things even on our public transportation the buses we have been buying weíve been buying with T.V. monitors behind the back of the driver and we want to advertise any of our facilities and I expect this Events Coordinator to also be reaching out to the towns for maybe itís the best of both worlds, maybe itís things like that so when weíre moving public transportation absolutely and any of those ideas that this board or anybody can send to me that will help this Events Coordinator position on Iím going to ask them to hunt a lot those things down still looking for opportunities.




DELORIA:Anyone else have anything?


WINEMILLER: I just had a question about the salt shed Jim.Can you send me the size of the salt shed and what the bid came in at?


DOUGAN: Itís not bid yet.




DOUGAN:Itís basically 80-foot-wide x 120-foot-long and itís going be designed to hold about 6,000 yards of material.Itís a grant from DEC.the total amount that was applied for is $1.2 million dollars, there is a match they gave us $750,000 in grant and we have to have a minimum of a 25% match or excuse me, $250,000 match which we are going to do with our own forces.


WINEMILLER:Two-hundred fifty you said?


DOUGAN:Two-hundred fifty thousand.


WINEMILLER:And do you think that 1.2 million will cover it?


DOUGAN: Yeah, I think so.What did yours come in Robin?


DELORIA:Ours was much smaller.I think ours was 60 x 80?Does that ring a bell?But the total grant was three-sixty-five and then our 25% on top of that.


DOUGAN:So we think so. This is going to be one of those fabric canopies similar to some, which is exactly what Newcomb put in and so it should be pretty cost effective.


DELORIA:I can push out the specs that Newcomb received for the board.


WINEMILLER:Iíd be interested.Weíre considering it.Is it like the pistachio looking Ė


DELORIA:Itís a dome shaped fabric structure much, much cheaper than going with wood and shingles I can assure you.


WINEMILLER:So itís concrete?


DELORIA:Yes, pre-cut concrete sides all brought in on a tractor trailer with the exception they do pour the footer but I can send you all that.


WINEMILLER:Excellent, thank you.


MONTY:I can send you a picture of ours. We built one for $130,000.




MONTY:Ours is 30 x 70.


DOUGAN: Your just storing salt in yours though.


MONTY: Weíre only storing salt.


DOUGAN:Ours will have all of our sand too.Ours was a WQI grant.I know if your familiar with that, water quality improvement project grant.


SCOZZAFAVA:Did you get the money yet?


DOUGAN: No.Iíve already drafted an email to send out.


DELORIA: Tommy, Newcomb got all of it.


SCOZZAFAVA:You did?How long did you wait?


DELORIA:We just got our last check Iím going to say, two weeks ago.


SCOZZAFAVA:But what was the waiting period?


DELORIA:We completed the project back in, we used it this winter so I will say we completed the project in late October relatively good turn around.




DELORIA: Okay does anybody have anything else for Jim Dougan?


DOUGAN:I did have one more thing to report that I forgot to mention and that is we replaced a couple of compactors in the last month one down in Schroon and then one in Lewis and there is just a note there I did want to take a minute to thank a couple of employees.We had the shoot off the top of the compactor already started un welding it and already disconnected the electrical and were ready for the next day when the crane was going to come in and take that off so that we could pull the whole compactor out and put the new on in when that morning of the crane vendor called and said he wasnít going to make it that day so the compactor that we replaced in Lewis is the one that any of the stuff that comes from the small towns that comes back to Lewis before it was trucked all the way to Franklin is the compactor that is used for that plus it was the one that Lewis uses so we couldnít wait two or three days and so some of my construction equipment mechanics and maintenance guys out in the shop came up with a plan and they welded in some pieces and bolted in some pieces and were able to lift the whole thing with a loader and still keep in on schedule so I just you know, I wanted to say I have some guys that can think pretty good and I wanted to give them some recognition.


DELORIA:Very good, thank you.


TYLER:Yes, I just wanted to publicly thank Jim and the highway crew and everybody.We had a State of Emergency out in Wadhams, both of our wells went down and we they were running around and Jim and Todd helped us immensely there.Jim helped us in getting a water truck up from Albany or Queensbury but it was touch and go there for a while and they helped us out.If it wasnít for the county we would still be probably without water.


MONTY: How much did that save you Jim?How much did that save you verses the crane moving the compactor?


DELORIA: He was $1200 a day.It did cost us a little bit of our guyís time but basically we saved $1200.It was, I wouldnít say it was quite as safe as having a crane it would have been a lot easier to pick that up and you would have had a lot more control but as you can see in the picture, those are tall and heavy but it kept us on schedule.They had a pretty safe plan.Iím not saying we would use again in the future but.


HUGHES:Iím not on the committee but just a quick question on the compactors.Is there a rotation schedule for replacement compactors or is it as they deem to fail?


DOUGAN:There is a county schedule.Two years ago, Dan was it?That we did a ten-year solid waste equipment plan so basically Iím buying a compactor pretty much every year.Thereís ten different sites that have compactors including there are four sites that have smaller compactors like yours and then they have ejection container so basically that plan had roughly $50,000 a year toward the replacement of compactors.I think after the ten years is up we will be able to phase that in a little bit because all of the compactors that we are replacing right now with the exception of two here in North Elba are the original ones from around the year 2000.†† The ejection containers we do have, we ordered two of those this year thereís a total of five of them in rotation and so those which are really rough.


DELORIA:Thank you Jim.Okay, Mr. Dougan we thank you.

Alice, do you have a report for us or does anybody have questions for Alice?


HALLORAN: I just want to say our hydro seeder is ready and we are going to take it out for the first time tomorrow so I encourage all your highway departments to let us know when they need hydro seeding.


DELORIA:Weíll be in touch.


HALLORAN:Yes, exactly.


DELORIA: Thank you.Okay, nothing for Alice.Mr. Barber has a hand out for the committee and I will give Clayton the floor.


BARBER:Good morning.At this time, I would like to ask this Board for their support in restoring the Upper Mill Hill Bridge which connects the Town of Chesterfield and the Town of AuSable.You ask why should we restore and not replace it.On April 7th we were on a call with a gentleman named Art Suckewer who specializes in restoring historical bridges and owns a company called Knite Inc. located in New Jersey.There were several people on the call, myself, Jim Dougan, two of my board members, Sandy Senecal, Town of AuSable Supervisor, Carl Weiss and Robbie Timmons, from Clinton County and Keeseville resident Matt Pray and Steve Englehart.Art explained in detail how we would restore the bridge and how doing so would be more economical.


I have been in office now for one year and four months.†† This issue was brought to my attention on day one by Matt Pray, who also addressed this board on August 3, 2020.Matt has been very dedicated and passionate about this project.He had told me then that he was starting a petition on Facebook for people to show their support and he also started the Facebook page ďSaving Keesevilleís Historic BridgesĒ.We have met on different occasions with now Senator Dan Stec, Robbie Timmons, Carl Weiss and many board members of the Town of Chesterfield and Town of AuSable.Together, we have walked along the bridges and discussed the importance of restoring them, for the sake of both of our towns.Iím proud to say that at this time we have over 2,100 signatures from business owners and community members who are in favor or restoring these bridges.I can personally attest to the fact that the upper Mill Hill bridge, when it was open, was used by any as a shortcut to get across the river to avoid traffic in downtown Keeseville.


The Upper Mill Hill Bridge was closed in 2004.In 2008 a project application was completed by New York State Department of Transportation, sponsored by the Essex County Department of Public Works, and at that time Superintendent, Frederick Buck.This application shows that the project of restoring the Upper Mill Hill Bridge had the support of Essex County along with many prominent local politicians and business owners.In this application, which I want to remind you was done in 2008, 13 years ago, it states that this bridge was utilized by more than 1,900 vehicles, pedestrians, and bicyclists on a daily basis.A 2020 census has shown that the population in the former village of Keeseville has increased by 61%.So you can only imagine the burden and inconvenience this closure has been to both the Town of Chesterfield and to the Town of AuSable.


One concern we all share is the safety of the residents in our communities.During Hurricane Irene in 2011, two other working bridges that connect our towns, were closed due to the high water, for at least 16 to 24 hours.The closing of these bridges during a time of crisis created a potentially hazard, dangerous and unnecessary increase in response time from emergency services.The Upper Mill Hill Bridge is located at a wider span of the AuSable River and is therefore higher and less apt to be effected by high waters.


When Matt first approached this board about this project we can all agree it wasnít a priority as we were all focused on the Covid pandemic and keeping our communities safe.As restrictions due to Covid have been slowly lifted, I myself have focused more on this project due to its historical importance for my town.


Being the town closest to the Clinton county border has its advantages.Weíre closer to the Plattsburgh mall, CVPH Hospital and many larger grocery stores.Weíre also closest to one of the largest seasonal attractions, the AuSable Chasm.Iím aware that Essex County has approximately 146 bridges along with hundreds of miles of roads to maintain.The cost of all of this does not go unnoticed.But I ask myself, is the Town of Chesterfield being overlooked when it comes to the funding of bridges?This bridge being re-opened would not only significantly improve the flow of traffic and be more convenient for many residents, but it also is very important historically.The Upper Mill Hill Bridge was constructed in 1878 and was listed on the National Registry of historical places in 1983.It was designated a national historic civil engineering landmark in 1987.Itís one of only two bridges in the United States that was built by Murray Dougal and Company.


Iím asking that you take a copy of this project application for your review.With this application youíll also see the many letters of support that were written.Iím also encouraging you all to go on Facebook and visit the page ďSave Keesevilleís Historic BridgesĒ that was created by Matt Pray.On it you will see all the support that this project has continued to receive.At this present time, I have a letter of support from Senator Dan Stec, and a commitment of support from Assemblyman Matt Simpson and Elise Stefanik.In closing, I ask all of you to ask yourselves that if this bridge was in your town would you not support it being re-opened?I thank all of you for your time and consideration of this very important project.


DELORIA:Okay Clayton are you going to take some direct questions from the committee at this time?


WINEMILLER:Iím just curious Clayton could you tell me, if the bridge were open would ambulance or fire trucks be able to cross it?


BARBER:Thatís our goal to restore it up to the tons so ambulances could cross it.


WINEMILLER:So it is possible that it could be restored to that?


BARBER:Absolutely, it was at one time.


WINEMILLER:It was?Okay thank you.


SCOZZAFAVA:Iím confused as to where these bridges are.Thereís one down near the bar room?


MONTY:The riverside Tom.


SCOZZAFAVA:So, do these cross over into Clinton County?


BARBER:Yes, they do.


SCOZZAFAVA:So, do they have any skin in the game on this?Are they in support?


BARBER:Yes.Before, Clinton County would not support it at that time.


SCOZZAFAVA:But right now they will?


BARBER:Right now, yes.


SCOZZAFAVA:For financial support?


BARBER:They are saying they will support it yes.Carl Weiss and Robbie Timmons went and walked the bridge with us, they said that they would support it.


SCOZZAFAVA: So, weíre picking up 20%?


BARBER:Well, obviously whatever the grant doesnít cover between Clinton County and Essex County.


SCOZZAFAVA: Youíve got verbal commitment from a couple legislators?


BARBER:Yes, I do.Dan Stec actually, Elise Stefanik is coming to the bridge thereís, weíve been contacted by former Governor George Pataki.


SCOZZAFAVA: Iím talking Clinton County.†† Do we have any kind of commitment from them?


BARBER: No, I do not.Not that I know of.


DELORIA:I think it would be premature at this time anyway for Clayton to reach out for support from Clinton County.


GILLILLAND:This engineer that youíve talked to, he specializes in restoration in old bridges right?




GILLILLAND:How much is he charging to the engineering plan for it?Is he putting forth a Ė


BARBER:He actually estimated to restore the bridge anywhere between $2 and $2.6 million.


GILLLILLAND:I understand but what Iím talking about is actually producing an engineer plan, a stamped plan to restore the bridge so that we can go to bid for construction.


BARBER:He didnít commit to that.No, he did not.


GILLILLAND:So to me the first step is weíre going to have to go out to bid for an engineering plan.Am I correct?So what does that normally run?


DOUGAN:On $2 million dollar bridges itís been costing, three-fifty, four-hundred thousand for a Federally funded plan.


GILLILLAND:Iím just saying that they are re-opening the RFP process, the single application this year from the RADC so I think me personally I think you and AuSable and a member of this board, I would be willing to do it and a member of Clinton County maybe Clinton County Chair of their legislature go talk to the RADC about this project.




MONTY:Clayton, is that grant money still there?I mean that grant money was what eight years ago, ten years ago?


BARBER:Yes, itís been 12 years ago.I donít know what happened to the grant.Iím assuming that it was either returned or Ė


MONTY:So, thereís no money there right now?




MONTY:And is that price for one bridge or both bridges?


BARBER: That price was just for one bridge.


MONTY:Has that group looked at the potential of just not opening for traffic but making it safe enough for foot traffic for pedestrians to cross it, bicycles to cross it?


BARBER:Like I said, thatís not our goal.My reason for that is safety reasons.Like I said in Hurricane Irene, when I said 16 to 24 hrs. I was putting that on the lighter side I believe it was longer but Iím not 100% sure.


MONTY:Has AuSable or Chesterfield decide on any funding on their own for this project?


BARBER:We are.We are constantly looking for money.We are trying to go under historical as it was before.Steve Englehart does a lot of that research which he is more than willing to do.


McNALLY:I understand if the bridge was in Minerva I think Iíd want that bridge there and just for the idea of public safety to drive a fire truck or ambulance on there however, I think what the sticking point was last time we didnít get much help from Clinton County on this and I think this should be a two county.I think we both should be paying for this bridge but I think we need to get the numbers before we make any kind of decision what the actual cost would be.


GILLILLAND: I think both with the RADC and with Northern Borders and the Federal Grant if we come into a regional plan with Clinton and Essex County would make it much stronger application for those funds.Youíve got to make sure Clinton County is on board and make a strong application.


MONTY:I just think all four should have skin in the game and not just letting Essex County do it.it should be Chesterfield and AuSable has skin financially.


McNALLY:I donít know.We have county bridges Ė is that a county or town bridge?


SCOZZAFAVA:These are both county bridges.


McNALLY:Well, if itís a county bridge the Town shouldnít have to have any skin in the game.


SCOZZAFAVA:Yeah, these are county bridges jointly owned by or responsibility lies with both counties.


McNALLY: Then I donít believe we should request for Chesterfield.


DELORIA:Okay, Clayton if you donít mind, Mr. Dougan, we must have a current bridge plan project funding and some sort of a method of how we determine you know, where our 146 bridges that Clayton spoke of where they stack up on nee3ding repair.Can you just speak on that briefly?


DOUGAN:We currently have 136 bridges, 135 bridges three of which are closed.One of those thatís closed is the one at Mill Hill that Clayton is speaking about right now thatís part of that total number.

Earlier today I told you about that bridge rating system one to seven and a five so we have 22 bridges that are ranked lower than a five right now as far scoring and the ranking goes for DOTís investigators so as I said, those are the ones on my top list.Bridges that are closed are no longer being inspected by DOT so this particular bridge isnít, itís well below a five okay obviously so those of you that were here for my 2016, is the last time I brought a bridge bond.I brought a bridge bond in 2020, Mr. Palmer felt that with Covid19 that didnít make a lot sense while we were still trying to figure out what kind of revenues we have.Iím about ready to bring a bridge bond request to you now the biggest reason I hadnít done that is because that restored some CHIPS money that last year they took from us that we use to pay for a bridge because I wasnít expecting it but I will be bringing a bridge bond and I will highlight those 22 bridges out of a 136 that are in our plan.Realistically that plan from 2016, I think I told everybody then is try to do about 3 bridges a year.If a bridge is going to last 50 years and we have roughly 150, weíve got to do 3 a year.I can tell you that in the past, since 2011, and we had a lot of bridges that were damaged because of FEMA paid for a lot of those from Irene weíve done about $34 million dollarsí worth of replacement bridges and unfortunately Mill Hill still hasnít been done.


DELORIA:Jim how familiar are you with the 2008 application that Fred Buck had submitted?Ae you familiar with that?


DOUGAN:I am familiar with the application.It appears to me that it had been part of the Federal aid process that we used right now. It doesnít appear to have been a separate funding source.Right now, we, there are 10 NYS DOT regions each region has MVO or a group of towns come together and fight for money, Federal aid, pass through money to fix roads and bridges.There are two counties in the State Essex and Greene who are not in MVOís so we generally negotiated with DOT that they are going to give us around two and half to three million dollars a year towards bridges or roads that are eligible for Federal funding.Every road that we have is eligible for funding, Federal funding but all bridges arenít so we typically use that Federal aid process which is cumbersome and expensive. The engineering costs go up significantly over if we did it ourselves but itís 80% Federal funds and we apply for each time, 15% State funds so itís 95% funded so I believe that application from 2008, was using that same program.Right now that program is funding the Tahawus Road bridge that is in design, the Water Street Bridge thatís about to go out to bid and the next project coming up will be Alexandria Ave. in Ticonderoga already has a PIN number from DOT each one of those projects takes about three years to develop and if Iím getting long winded here Iím sorry but I know it pretty, inside and out.In the conversations with Mr. Barber about this bridge and I was on the conference call the one thing that I asked is that they donít take from my existing funding sources.I understand the historic significance there but please, donít take from my Federal aid program or the bridge bond money that you guys give me when I ask so if thereís other money out there then I understand it.So back to the 2008 application there was a 2008 engineering report provided by our engineer, Schoder River Associates.†† In that report and I will give everybody copies of it.It says that the original components canít be replaced with the original materials to keep all the original design character and come up with a rating over 7 tons.The Village of Keesevilleís current ambulance is more than 7 tons so thatís one engineerís opinion okay?


DELORIA:Hey Jimmy, let me just provide a little direction here. Could you between now and our next DPW meeting spend a little time putting together some sort of general synopsis or even an objective opinion if we were going to support Claytonís passion for trying to get this bridge replaced in the future which youíre telling me right now is five years down the road for a bridge thatís been closed for twelve now, almost fourteen and then provide that to us at our next DPW meeting?Would you have time to do that?


DOUGAN:Yes, I can pull together a bridge plan because thatís part of asking for a bridge bond and I can give you information on those 22 bridges that I talked about.I can give you more information on this and pull up that 2008 report.


SCOZZAFAVA:Seeing as they are jointly owned are we the lead agency on these bridges or do we have to involve Clinton County?


DOUGAN:We are the lead agency but we do have to involve Clinton County.We are the lead agency on the Mill Hill Bridge that Clayton is talking about and the bridge, the old Route 9 bridge at AuSable Chasm Clinton County is the lead agency on that but would have to involve us.


SCOZZAFAVA:So I mean, itís a 50-50 partnership so I donít know how we can go anywhere without something from Clinton County?


DELORIA:Yes and that can be part of what you provide to us.Clayton do you have anything?


BARBER:I want to make the statement, so on the call Jim this gentleman Art Suckewer did say, that if it was him he could restore this bridge to the ten to fifteen ton.


DOUGAN:He also, in his agenda and Iím not into fight back but in his agenda that he sent out prior to that meeting he says, these bridges typically donít meet DOT standards but are still safe.Those are pretty much his exact words and he yes, said he could do it but I asked the question if he was a licensed PE and he didnít answer me.He said he was trained as an engineer.Now, I understand that but whether or not we can put the public over a bridge based on somebodyís word is a little different than having a PE stamp for it.Is my concern and I have an engineering report from an engineer that says it canít go over seven tons with the existing components.


BARBER:In this project application when they bid that they were going to restore it to ten tons.


DOUGAN: I understand that was fourteen years ago and I just explained that HS20 standard is now HS25 things have changed unfortunately the codes get worse and worse and worse so Iím not against looking at it.Iím not at all and I understand the historical significance.


DELORIA:Itís going to take time.I mean, I share the passion and seeing this bridge not get knocked off the river.Itís beautiful.Iíve seen the pictures of it and stuff like that but when it comes to engineering and the ability for the county to even consider funding again, what itís going to cost so I think weíre going to have to spend some time with Mr. Douganís office and he can bring this report to us similarly to what Fred Buck probably did before the actual application went it. Iím sure they were heavily involved in looking at the replacement of that bridge in 2008.So I think what we need to do is just table the discussion but give Jim some time, it doesnít have to be next month I mean, if you can great but I think we need to give him some time to bring us some more material.

And again, I share the passion that you have for that bridge.Itís absolutely gorgeous and I think we should do what we can but we donít know what that is at this point in time.


PALMER:Bridges are tough.We donít get a lot of help with them.Typically, every four years we take $7 million dollars in bridge bond.It comes down to fitting it in honestly, you have to make choices about what bridges youíre going to do.Jim puts that bridge plan together based upon traffic over a bridge or how itís used and the rating of the bridge so I donít want to, Jim is kind of taking the brunt of this itís not really, entirely Jim itís got to come down to what we can afford within a bridge bond.$7 million dollars every four or five years is what we have to spend on bridges and there isnít a lot of help.


DELORIA:And certainly seek these other funding opportunities that have been discussed too so you know I wouldnít stop going down that road.Is there anything else?


WINEMILLER:Just have a quick question for Clayton.If it were possible to do the bridge is it more important that it be completely historically accurately or completed as inexpensively and as safely with the highest rating?Is it more the historical aspect of it that is important or the actual function?


BARBER:I mean I would rather see it restored historically but if not, again, like I said thereís a lot of people that used that bridge before.Itís definitely a burden for anybody in the Town of Chesterfield and the Town of AuSable.Like I said, I know hurricanes donít happen every day but if it happens again, the other two bridges were closed for 24 hours.


WINEMILLER:But function over form I guess right?




GIORDANO:Jim, if I heard you right back in 2008, regulations were changed five times?


DOUGAN:Itís not five times but different load bearing.


GIORDANO:Based on that engineering can this bridge be built to be able to handle the capacity of emergency vehicles given the compatibility of replacement parts with the original design is that what Iím hearing?So is the rehabilitation going to allow for I guess emergency transport motorists or does this bridge require a complete review of the replacement of the bridge to be handle that tonnage?


DOUGAN: I would say that a fire truck, youíre never going to get a fire truck over it but an ambulance okay?The report that Schoder Rivers did in 2008, regarding structure said that you canít take the single components and rebuild them to match and still get anything over seven tons.Thatís what that report did from one engineer back and Iíve called the Village of Keeseville and they are in excess of seven tons so there are ambulances less than seven tons but I donít think youíre going to tell necessary tell the Village of Keeseville Fire Department.So, maybe we look at it maybe it can be done. I donít know.I mean, is it strong enough for a walking bridge today?Very likely and I very much appreciate the opinion and expertise that Mr. Suckewer had when talked about this bridge but he, himself said not to take it to a Federal aid process which we just talked about.In that meeting he said, that not to take it because the cost would be exponential okay?So Iím hesitant.Iím not a licensed PE.You need a licensed PE especially if you are willing to put vehicle and ambulance and if you canít put at least an ambulance across it do you just stick with it being a walking bridge.


DELORIA: Okay letís do some number crunching and some more reports.


BARBER: One more thing, was it was talked about just taking the sides of the bridge and the upper part of the bridge and redoing the bottom of the bridge to make it safe for emergency services just keeping the historical part of the top and the railings and sides.


DELORIA:Alright, so that would have to be looked at too from a PEís standpoint.Okay, anything further on this particular topic?Okay, anything else to come before this committee today if not, we stand adjourned.


††††††††††† As there was no further discussion to come before this DPW Committee it was adjourned at 10:25 a.m.


Respectfully submitted,




Judy Garrison, Clerk

Board of Supervisors